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What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - Printable Version

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RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - Samven - 05-17-2015

I dislike the ATB because having to wait for a gauge to fill before I can take my turn instead of just having the turn take place immediately after an enemy's just bogs down combat in my eyes.

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - DoubleX - 05-18-2015

(05-17-2015, 06:23 PM)Samven Wrote: I dislike the ATB because having to wait for a gauge to fill before I can take my turn instead of just having the turn take place immediately after an enemy's just bogs down combat in my eyes.
If it's not just about long wait, but short wait(like less than 1 second) as well, then it's the entire atb concepts that don't match those sharing your preference.

Hmmm...the atb niche is just so tiny lol

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - RosyPosy - 05-19-2015

Well CTBs exist so the need for ATBs are just not there.They were short lived primarily because they sat inbetween the two extremes and they managed to slow down both options.
the best usage of action time was prolly in FF12.because actions had different cast times you could Strat around that.
Waiting on a turn though is just lunacy. Its a cost for an assumed action. Like paying a toll for walking, it will never feel gratifying.

Use haste in a Ctb and you immediately see its effect and its gratifying.
Use haste in FF7 and you simply make grinding less annoying. i never felt like I got an advantage from haste- Instead I just used Fury alot take more damage use more Limits- finish fight much quicker+ you upgrade limits faster doing that.
In some play throughs I was able to get level 3s for cloud and barret before I got to Yuffies Wutai section.
( the grinding was real tho XD)

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - DoubleX - 05-19-2015

(05-19-2015, 09:43 AM)RosyPosy Wrote: Well CTBs exist so the need for ATBs are just not there.They were short lived primarily because they sat inbetween the two extremes and they managed to slow down both options.
the best usage of action time was prolly in FF12.because actions had different cast times you could Strat around that.
Waiting on a turn though is just lunacy. Its a cost for an assumed action. Like paying a toll for walking, it will never feel gratifying.

Use haste in a Ctb and you immediately see its effect and its gratifying.
Use haste in FF7 and you simply make grinding less annoying. i never felt like I got an advantage from haste- Instead I just used Fury alot take more damage use more Limits- finish fight much quicker+ you upgrade limits faster doing that.
In some play throughs I was able to get level 3s for cloud and barret before I got to Yuffies Wutai section.
( the grinding was real tho XD)
So is it because the atb feature set hasn't been expanded enough to make atb systems to have unique values, or is it because the very essence of the core atb concepts are just... "self-defeating"?

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - RosyPosy - 05-19-2015

(05-19-2015, 02:49 PM)DoubleX Wrote:
(05-19-2015, 09:43 AM)RosyPosy Wrote: So is it because the atb feature set hasn't been expanded enough to make atb systems to have unique values, or is it because the very essence of the core atb concepts are just... "self-defeating"?
Self defeating. though if you made stuff like haste much stronger then it could add to strategy at-least.
Simpler math instead of 150% or 200% increase just make it insane like 300% so it guarantees usefulness. raise its cost to justify the power.
If you dont want your atb to be really annoying speeding up the required fight time will do that- making all enemies and allies defeat-able within 3 -5 hits (at the level your supposed to be when you get to that area) Stuff cant miss as often so the level of speed should basically guarantee a hit- unless Slow\stop or the like. just make sure every move you have in the game is a clear advantage if used. If an enemy is weak to fire He should be down in 2 hits to it.(at same level) If hes resilient He should triple his defense agianst it. showing how ineffective it is to the player will force them to think of different options.stuff like that will rob the atb of time to annoy us.

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - Taylor - 05-21-2015

I was trying to think of a way to justify ATB but then I realised, well, I actually prefer CTB.

If you make ATB fast enough the wait time isn't a chore, you end up with enemies that will attack far too often to be manageable, unless you somehow balanced them to have "thinking" and "selecting menu option" periods. Since the player has to think or navigate menus, it creates extra time between their actions that enemies don't have. Having slower ATB helps balance this with enemies, but makes waiting sometimes really dull.

With CTB in this case, I'm simply assuming ATB but with time-pauses during actions or menu navigation. (There are other forms of CTB, like FFX's.) Here it's when slower wait times are a detriment, but faster speeds are useful because turns come sooner and you don't have to worry about the enemy dogpiling the player while they're trying to make a move.

As much as people hate the FFXIII series, it tried two different things with ATB that were interesting: In both the original and Lightning Returns, in different ways, you have different commands with different ATB costs. You can stock up 3-5 attacks on average because a basic attack only costs one ATB "segment". LR's numbers make it out a little more like MP+ATB, but it's the same basic idea. LR also though gives the player three ATB bars - one for each equipped command/equipment set, and the battles revolve around using one while the others recharge.

I prefer CTB, but I also like what FFXIII tried. I don't know if that sort of system would work terribly well combined with CTB, as you'd have to create enemy AI that decides how many actions to stack up in a single turn. That becomes some AI Roulette hell. In one RPG Maker game I discovered the whole reason I was having a hard time with the default battle system it used was because enemies were always attacking first, and single/double/triple attacks were based entirely on chance what would be selected. The player had two actions a turn, but you'd end up using one of those actions healing, another slowly pecking the enemy down. It was grindy and not fun.

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - Kain Nobel - 06-12-2015

Ouch, so much hate for ATB! (I'm using an ATB >.<)

I like the concept of an ATB but also appreciate the CTB for the obvious reasons. I feel a lot of CTB concepts could be applied to the ATB, which I've gone ahead and put into my own personal project. There really isn't *much* wait time between turns as it is, insofar as attacking and other basic commands, so it's not like you'd be sitting there staring at the bar slowly filling all the time. However, there are special abilities that either A.) require a charge time or B.) require a recovery period for the user, due to the strength of said ability.

What I like about the ATB in general is the fact that something is always going on, you have to think on your feet and be quick about deciding your next move. Certainly, if you wind up with an arsenal of 30+ spells and more items than can be counted, that can become a bit difficult. Then again, when speaking of Final Fantasy, there is usually a setting for Active and Wait, so that helps.

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - KasperKalamity - 06-12-2015

it's stupid to assume that my characters are just standing there waiting for a bar to fill up. it breaks the magic. nobody's just going to stand around and get hit, and then go alright it's my turn, stand still.

RE: What do you dislike in ATB Systems? - DoubleX - 06-13-2015

(06-12-2015, 06:29 AM)Kain_Nobel Wrote: Ouch, so much hate for ATB! (I'm using an ATB >.<)

I like the concept of an ATB but also appreciate the CTB for the obvious reasons. I feel a lot of CTB concepts could be applied to the ATB, which I've gone ahead and put into my own personal project. There really isn't *much* wait time between turns as it is, insofar as attacking and other basic commands, so it's not like you'd be sitting there staring at the bar slowly filling all the time. However, there are special abilities that either A.) require a charge time or B.) require a recovery period for the user, due to the strength of said ability.

What I like about the ATB in general is the fact that something is always going on, you have to think on your feet and be quick about deciding your next move. Certainly, if you wind up with an arsenal of 30+ spells and more items than can be counted, that can become a bit difficult. Then again, when speaking of Final Fantasy, there is usually a setting for Active and Wait, so that helps.
It's because this topic's about what we dislike in atb systems :)
It can be due to our specific personal preferences(like some just want space management in ABS as well), or due to general atb system pitfalls.
The dislike can apply to specific atb systems, or the entire core atb concepts themselves.
As long as the dislikes clearly shows whether they're specific personal preferences or general atb system pitfalls, and whether they apply to specific atb systems or the entire core atb concepts themselves, these dislikes can be extremely valuable feedbacks.
Atb system developers/users can use those info to improve and polish the atb system scripts and their specific applications, while non-atb system users can have more reasons to justify their decisions. As long as those dislikes don't have fundamental conflicts with the entire core atb concepts themselves, they can still do something to fix those issues.
For example, if wasting time navigating the skill/item menus is a general atb system pitfall that applies to specific atb systems, those systems can be upgraded to have skill/item selection hotkeys to cure the issue.
So I'm actually glad to see "so much hate" for ATB lol(actually I don't think there's really so much hate :D)


(06-12-2015, 09:17 PM)KasperKalamity Wrote: it's stupid to assume that my characters are just standing there waiting for a bar to fill up. it breaks the magic. nobody's just going to stand around and get hit, and then go alright it's my turn, stand still.
To clarity, what do you think about the default RMVXA turn based battle system, and custom CTB systems? I want to know if you just point to atb systems, or actually turn based battle systems in general XD