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Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - Printable Version

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RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - Remi-chan - 01-27-2023

I expect no one to really change engine to MV. I was surprised I managed to convince Jayray to do so!

But I think it is important to realize XP is an obvious overall downgrade, and that's okay. I just don't want people getting the misleading idea that XP is a better engine when it's clearly not. Jayray probably woulda' been using it and been at a direct disadvantage if I didn't provide my arguments for using MV over XP to him.

I intend to stop the misleading indoctrination, naught else.

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - kyonides - 01-27-2023

MV's has some buggy features that makes it look like a serious downgrade. One is the well known limitations on tileset dimensions, but hey, there's another one! It's the default audio play DELAY. Seriously, the RGSS based engines weren't as bad as to introduce such a horrible bug. On MV people have to way till the file is fully loaded on memory to start listening to it... AFTER they have entered the new map or menu (if the menu has its own BGM properly setup).

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - JayRay - 01-28-2023

Okay... we're straying back away from the spirit of the newly created forum thread about whether peer pressure HAS been experienced, and we can all agree, it has. That being said, I had to address a few errant statements. 

(01-27-2023, 10:56 PM)kyonides Wrote: One is the well known limitations on tileset dimensions...

Okay, we've been over this but let's try to showcase a few things...

If we're going by the base tileset, with no expanding plugins (MV) or scripts (XP) XP has 7 autotile features for any tileset. That means that XP can only provide enough spaces to do seven different blocks for autotile features, before using the three layers in game + event level to decorate your maps.

[Image: 5TvWBfr.png]

Then for me personally, it becomes a trial-and-error situation of making sure that one tile can be seen over the other, also ensuring that the priorities, passabilities and more get posted correctly. Also of note is how much space you actually HAVE to work with each autotile. You gain only 16 pixels in which to accent your borders, and strangely enough on each autotile, 4 16x16 blocks of pixels are repeats of the central four blocks. 

Now, with MV.... in the autotile sections, you have... 

- 8 autotiles on A1 that can be combined with 8 decal autotiles for a combination of around 64 autotiles
- 8 more base ground autotiles with a variation autiotile for each, along with 16 decal autotiles that can be placed over any of the 8 tiles of A1 OR A2
- 32 more block-style autotiles for walls and roofs
- 24 more autotiles for complex wall or obstruction shapes, all of which can still enjoy those 16 different decals from A2

[Image: ypN6TZ2.png]

In sheer combinations alone, that's a lot more than XP's Tilesetting, meaning in order to add decals to your autotiles, you have to devote a portion of your regular non-autotile tileset to augmenting the small choices you have for your tileset. 

Next, as far as Tilesets themselves go... 

RMXP does allow 'unlimited' tilesets - albiet by the out-of-the-box configuration, only allow for 32 pixels per tile. Also, if you want any variations in your tileset, you can't just create a new tileset configuration in the editor to 'take a little from this set, and a little from that set.' No - it's ONLY that tileset. MV allows you to have 4 different subsections for your specific tileset. Want some dungeon tiles in your forest? Swap the D set for the dungeon set. Want a few town tiles? Swap the B set....

If you want that sort of variation in your XP tileset, you have to MAKE a whole new tileset graphic, some of which will have the same tiles, repetitive, taking more memory and space. Now, one would say. No! I'll just put ALLLLL my tiles on one set, that way no matter what forest encounter I want, I have the tile for it, to which I say, Ok, now you have a 256 pixel graphic x 3840 pixels running all over the place. 

MV's tileset graphics at the biggest are 768x768, compartmentalized, easy to swap out, and much more efficient. I believe you can have up to 999 of those different combinations, much more than anyone (even myself) would ever need. 

However, that all is negligable because as you yourself have admitted, both XP and MV have extensions like Doodads, making both their tilesets 'infinite' - MV does edge out there in my opinion as I have a more visually appealing interface with Yanfly's Grid Free Doodads script. It can be used inside the test play itself. 


(01-27-2023, 10:56 PM)kyonides Wrote: ... It's the default audio play DELAY. Seriously, the RGSS based engines weren't as bad as to introduce such a horrible bug. On MV people have to way till the file is fully loaded on memory to start listening to it... AFTER they have entered the new map or menu (if the menu has its own BGM properly setup)....

Negligable

AudioStreaming.js (Plugin to improve RPG Maker MV audio performance) | RPG Maker Forums (rpgmakerweb.com)

No real scripting knowledge needed. Add plugin to plugin directory, set perimeters, and I personally see no audio performance issues. Just like XP has different scripts for anti-lag and audio lag (and yes, XP has audio lag issues as well, especially in cutscenes... ) MV has issues that are easily fixed with a drag-and-drop plugin. The difference in my opinion IS that it's plug and play. XP's scripts, you have to add them, and then if there's anything you need to 'tweak' you have to go into the script, find the line, and tweak it manually, Heaven help you if you accidently delete a ";" or something. With MV, once you install a plugin, you can turn it off and on, and go in and see the variables that you should be able to change, and leave the advanced stuff to the tweakers.

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - kyonides - 01-28-2023

Negligable? Huh?
That's how you call forcing the MV users to find out they have never fixed that in the default engine?
We're not just talking about a bad impression here but a terrible practice perpetuated by RM devs.
Seasoned players would tear the game off for even less than that.

And what if you have to keep trying to get what you get? At least that's the way you put it, not me.
What's the big issue with placing the autotiles the XP way? Is it really that hard to get a good result?
Really? Or are you making it look worse than it's ever been? We really need more to call it a bug or nuisance instead of an user's skill level issue.

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - JayRay - 01-28-2023

XP never fixed the fact that large sprites disappear from the game screen if the one tile at the base of their sprite goes off screen... You have to add a script to fix that.
XP never fixed large sprites keeping their Y-priorities on a map, you have to add a script for that.

Simply, NO Engine is perfect in all methods. So people make scripts, plugins, and fix them for their specific preference.Yes, plugin, fixed - five minutes and done. Hell, it took me all of 30 seconds to find the plugin for that audio 'issue' (That I never experienced myself) on Google.

Also, I say negligable, because just like XP has preloader scripts, MV has Preload_Cache! I use it all the time, loads the music, graphics, and all I need before I even enter a scene. JUST like preloading was done with XP...


But let's address something I'm seeing as a theme here. You hate on a lot of stuff, simply because you're stuck to YOUR way or no way.

I posted a simple event system that was drag and drop for RPG Developer Bakin, the method that allows text files to simply be dragged and dropped between projects and you came back with. "I would have to see it in English." You literally dissed a Japanese engine's format because you didn't understand its capabilities.. I talked about Bakin in the engine discussion, and you came across with just - well, I'm going to come out and say it. negativity.

Quote:[Image: think.gif] Does this engine feature any kind of programming language?
Even Warcraft 3's engine had something like that. [Image: sweathappy.gif]
Is it stable? Or buggy? Because in WC3 the engine couldn't handle pointers properly for some weird reason, and people always warned fellow users about optimizing events and resources.

Well, a PC or laptop with Win10 and 8 GB RAM serves as a bare minimum for decent performance for Win10 consumes the first 4 GB entirely. I hate when engines become real resource hogs. [Image: confused.gif]

[Image: whocares.gif] I wouldn't use it unless it could run on Win8 as well.

Stop being a hater on everything, man.

Update: Just in note... The basic tileset from XP is 8 colums of 13 rows (01-Grassland...)
An MV Tileset for the B is 8 columns of 32 rows, and there's 4 of them (B,C,D and E) for 128 total tile rows. 

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - kyonides - 01-28-2023

I thought you'd mentioned my thoughts on Minecraft not Bakin after comparing it with WC3 and its weird pointer issues and memory leaks.

So you're saying that I gotta be a hater for stating that it should or could or would be preferable to watch any engine like Bakin run on Windows 8? Huh?

Actually, that would demonstrate that you hate Win8 instead. Laughing

Of course, at some point you'd say that MS is about or has stopped supporting Win8. Hasn't it proven so far that it's the second most stable Win release in history? Thinking

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - Remi-chan - 01-28-2023

I should mention that relating to the topic. You have been pressuring people to use 'your' engine and dismissing things like Bakin, Smile Game Builder and so on when it's been presented that they may not have scripting support.

So I kinda feel like you getting it back is just kinda karma at this point.

Also your stanning Windows 8? Man, you are just a manegerie of bad taste. I mean silver-spoon here, I used Win 7 until i couldn't, where afterwards I jumped to Windows 10.

Of course Win 8 isn't gonna run much smothly, it was an operating system that was made for mobile phones first, and then ported to a PC OS (poorly) afterwards.

Honestly Kyonides. I'd be less embarrassed of you if you used a macbook.

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - JayRay - 01-28-2023

And besides. I'm not hating on Windows 8, I'm simply going on when an engine posts its requirements, you made it a point to go negative, a continued trend amongst most posts here that don't match your 'one and only' mentality towards other engines.

Seriously if you're going to go on a topic, to the point that where it strays from that topic to give you ANOTHER thread to promote that very topic, and you stray from that again to post more stuff about another engine's issues or lack thereof, I'm just going to give you the stage to babble incoherently to yourself.

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - kyonides - 01-28-2023

(01-28-2023, 04:23 AM)JayRay Wrote: And besides. I'm not hating on Windows 8, I'm simply going on when an engine posts its requirements, you made it a point to go negative, a continued trend amongst most posts here that don't match your 'one and only' mentality towards other engines.

Seriously if you're going to go on a topic, to the point that where it strays from that topic to give you ANOTHER thread to promote that very topic, and you stray from that again to post more stuff about another engine's issues or lack thereof, I'm just going to give you the stage to babble incoherently to yourself.

You first claim that I am a hater for asking something that any other Win8 user would have asked any game engine dev around the world under similar circumstances. Where's the actual proof? Still waiting for it. So far I only said I hate Minecraft. Period.

At least Bakin added C#, that isn't my favorite language, while another one hasn't considered it seriously. That sole fact is a 1+ for Bakin and a -1 or even -5 for the other engine.

So now you're leaving the discussion because you failed to make me and perhaps any other forumers love MV like you do. That makes you sound more like somebody that doesn't like it as much as initially stated. Just saying.

Can't you accept the fact that there will always be people that won't ever make the move to later iterations of the engine series? Even if they purchase them, they could simply leave them sleep for the next century because it wasn't as satisfying as the devs had been telling them.

One of the points that I can easily admit is that MV and MZ still have many DLC's with graphical resources. Good, even so there are people like me that would purchase them but use them in XP or VX Ace instead just because it's possible. The music packs have no specific engine in mind except for those that include m4a files.

But one question has been lurking around ever since you started promoting two foreign engines here, or relatively unknown on the board, why did you pick MV if you were focusing in Bakin and that other similar engine already?

JayRay Wrote:I posted a simple event system that was drag and drop for RPG Developer Bakin, the method that allows text files to simply be dragged and dropped between projects and you came back with. "I would have to see it in English." You literally dissed a Japanese engine's format because you didn't understand its capabilities.. I talked about Bakin in the engine discussion, and you came across with just - well, I'm going to come out and say it. negativity.

Is it just negativity to point out that the engine also needed to be able to parse that event file in English instead of Japanese only!?

Going back to Wulfo's comment on RM2K and earlier installments, they were available on Japanese only and they weren't supposed to be used abroad like Don Miguel pretended. Since Bakin isn't supposed to make that "mistake" (or simply a business decision), why not worrying about making it work with English terms as well?

I'd praise them for making that improvement.

RE: Peer pressured badly to switch engines? - DerVVulfman - 01-28-2023

(01-28-2023, 04:53 AM)kyonides Wrote: Is it just negativity to point out that the engine also needed to be able to parse that event file in English instead of Japanese only!?
This, an off-topic point. HOWEVER, JayRay made it clear that the Japanese text within the uploadable event code is itself the actual code used by the engine. The Japanese text you are complaining about are the coded commands that must be in the language in which the game engine's processor can understand. They are not mere comments that can be translated.

Do you think that the Japanese users are coding their scripts with Japanese commands within any of the RPGMaker line? You have seen Japanese scripts. The commands they write are in English, with only comments that are completely inconsequential being in Japanese. The text within the Events you have complained about are the commands, and that's not going to change.

Before anything said, JayRay did state within the very first Bakin Event system thread (Grid Based Movement!), "It's not for you to read, it's for you to copy to a text file." and "But depending on what translation you have, the panels will show up for you in engine as English."

(01-28-2023, 04:23 AM)JayRay Wrote: Seriously if you're going to go on a topic, to the point that where it strays from that topic to give you ANOTHER thread to promote that very topic, and you stray from that again to post more stuff about another engine's issues or lack thereof, I'm just going to give you the stage to babble incoherently to yourself.

Regarding this statement, I fully understand the sentiment. However, I will go a step further.

This is not an attack on one individual or another. I am not going to cast any shadow or light upon one system or another. However, I will make this statement. I will not permit any personal vituperations, or arguments that sway or veer the purpose of this thread from its title-defined intent.

Continuation beyond its intent, the query 'if' one has been pressured, or have received some measure of peer pressure to switch to another service, this thread will duly be locked.