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On the subject of cheating. (/thread-2926.html)On the subject of cheating. - PK8 - 04-01-2009
A short conversation with someone inspired me to make this thread. (months ago)
I've a couple questions I want to ask you guys about cheats.
- How do you feel about cheats?
- Do you feel that it makes games fun or ruins the experience?
- Do you feel that it may affect replay value?
- In your opinion, what is cheating? Define it.
- Do you feel that it makes games fun or ruins the experience?
- Bugs and Flaws
- From a player or developer perspective, how do you feel about unintentional game bugs and flaws?
- How about players possibly taking advantage of those flaws, perhaps for their own benefit?
- From a player or developer perspective, how do you feel about unintentional game bugs and flaws?
- Cheat Implementation
- For developers, would you implement cheats in your projects?
- If yes, how would you implement them? Button Presses? Input Menu? Rewarding dedicated players? A shop system? An item hidden somewhere in a map? Something else?
- Any cheats you're sneaking into your project?
- For developers, would you implement cheats in your projects?
- Tips and recommendations?
- Any cheats you'd recommend for other folks who may be working on a project?
- Got a tip you'd like to share to the others on the subject of implementing cheats and unlockables?
- Any cheats you'd recommend for other folks who may be working on a project?
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I think cheats can be fun depending on what the cheats may be. Like if there's some god mode cheat along with some infinite resources cheat activated at the same time, I'd feel great for a quite a bit. Depending on what the cheats may be, it may spoil the experience, would make players quickly lose interest in the game as well as reducing the replay value of the game.
For bug/flaws, it depends, really. I mean let's say we're playing a platformer/action game, if the player was using a game bug to his/her advantage at a situation where something (an enemy, a puzzle, a screen, a level) looks pretty easy to beat, I would say the player was pretty desperate and that it's like a low blow. I mean, if something, according to the majority of the players of a certain game says "this looks piss-easy to beat", then I'd expect the minority of the players to try harder. If there's something that seems nearly impossible to beat, like a complicated platformer stage for example, I'd understand why (s)he would use a bug to his/her advantage. I would still find it desperate, but hey, if something looks and seems pretty impossible to beat, I'd say that bug is doing a service to the player. From a developer perspective, speaking hypothetically, it would be a mixed reaction. I probably wouldn't like how a player took advantage of a bug in the game to progress, but in a way, I'd commend the player for his/her determination to beat the game.
As for implementing cheats and how I would go about doing it, it's something I'm thinking about and debating on. Right now, I'm working on a platformer project using RPG Maker XP (yeah, let's see how long I'll keep that up :P ). I was thinking about implementing it via a cheat code input menu as well as rewarding the players who beat the game (playtime may play a factor in what the player unlocks). Cheats I might sneak into my project? It's something I'm thinking about. So far, they might not come across as interesting to others. I'm thinking BIG MODE where the sprite of the player is big as well as TINY MODE where the sprite of the player is small.
As for tips, I really don't have much. (Probably an obvious tip.) If you're someone who is implementing some form of money into your projects and have a huge amount of ideas and content for unlockables, this tip is for you. You definitely might want to think about setting up a shopping system.
Now that I'm done talking, discuss away!
On the subject of cheating. - MicKo - 04-01-2009
Punk Wrote:How do you feel about cheats?I think it depends on two factors : the game, and the cheat itself.
Do you feel that it makes games fun or ruins the experience?
Do you feel that it may affect replay value?
In your opinion, what is cheating? Define it.
1/ The game. If the game is REALLY hard, some cheats may be nice to enjoy the game (some games are so hard you don't even enjoy playing it anymore).
2/ The cheat itself.
- Some cheats aren't real cheats, like the cheats that transform enemies into weird creatures, or things like that.
- Some cheats are obtainable only when you finish the game (I'm thinking about Goldeneye on N64, it was kinda difficult to obtain some cheats, and when you had them the replay value just got up a little, thanks to the fun the invisibility or invincibility gave).
So my opinion about cheating depends on those two factors. If the game is not really difficult and if it's a cheat you can get from the start without even knowing how to play, I think it can ruin a game, yes.
Punk Wrote:Bugs and FlawsWell, some bugs can be fun or a real pain in the ass. If the bugs reduce the quality of the game, then it should be avoided at all cost, in my opinion.
From a player or developer perspective, how do you feel about unintentional game bugs and flaws?
How about players possibly taking advantage of those flaws, perhaps for their own benefit?
And players will always (with exceptions though) take advantage of those flaws if it reduces the difficulty of the game. I think about MMORPGs, which I played a lot. If you could get an uber item easily, you just did it if you didn't fear to be banned from the server. On an offline game, you can't be banned so, it's up to the player's point of view.
Punk Wrote:Cheat ImplementationI've never thought about that actually, but it could be a good idea to reward the player who did something special in the game (Finishing the game => small cheat, finishing the game in less than x hours > bigger cheat, etc.).
For developers, would you implement cheats in your projects?
If yes, how would you implement them? Button Presses? Input Menu? Rewarding dedicated players? A shop system? An item hidden somewhere in a map? Something else?
Any cheats you're sneaking into your project?
But I think I won't do something like that, since my game won't be a "Stage select" kind of game. Otherwise, I would.
Punk Wrote:Tips and recommendations?I like the "cheats" where your characters just change their appearance. Changing color or completly changing the character him/herself can be fun. Why not a weapon that transforms the enemies you hit with it so that the dragon you were fighting becomes a Slime !
Any cheats you'd recommend for other folks who may be working on a project?
Got a tip you'd like to share to the others on the subject of implementing cheats and unlockables?
On the subject of cheating. - DerVVulfman - 04-01-2009
Cheats have been in games for decades and were originally left behind (accidentally) by the game designers so they can test game features out without having to start over. I mean, features like 'God Mode' and 'Warp' were initially installed so they could betatest it without having to reset the game. Other cheats such as 'mo money' and others were installed so extra gear or items could be tested.
Of course, cheats have evolved to the point that players try and discover them to enhance their playing experience. A little known game called 'Rise of the Triad' (from the makers of Doom ? ), not only had 'God Mode' but had a comical cheat called... 'Chicken Mode' where you morphed down to a chicken, clucking and pecking at the bad guys. :P
I don't mind cheat codes as I think I would install them in my game for testing purposes. Of course, I intend to make the cheat codes hard to figure out.
* * *
Bugs? Hate them. The most insidious bug is the dreaded 'stuck in the wall' bug. Ouch. If a puzzle or minigame is so hard that a bug is the ONLY way to beat it, then somebody better reconsider that puzzle.
Bugs... should... be... squashed.
* * *
A simple way to add cheats would probably be through simple 'events'. Using a tree, stump or log in a map to call up a cheat. Find some gold in a hollow log that refills, Knock over a tombstone to bring up the godmode switch, other things like that.
Another way would be to have something like the 'F9' button (ye olde Debug button) to bring up a new screen where you need to type in the name of a cheat. I'd actually use Shift + F8 rather than F9 for coding purposes. Follow that with the screen asking for some text entry like you'd see in the 'Enter Hero Name' window. If what you enter matches a cheat code, the cheat code is turned on.
* * *
Besides using the cheat code window I mentioned, a 'NewGame+' option if you beat the game already can extra features like new characters with extra abilities, new skills or items and maybe even more quests to make the game fresh.
I never thought about a NewGame+' option as I'd want the player to be able to have a fresh experience every time they play... possibly by using a random quest feature or something that changes the options every time you start a new game.
On the subject of cheating. - SP27 - 08-29-2009
# How do you feel about cheats?
* Do you feel that it makes games fun or ruins the experience?
Yes, it ruins the fun and experience.
Take a game like Monster Hunter Freedom Unite for example.
If you cheat maximum gold (z) and all items maxed, than there is no more need to play the game because that game is all about collecting and gathering materials to power up your armor and weapons.
Same goes for "Max attack" type of cheats... 1 hit and the enemy dies... Oh how fun...
* Do you feel that it may affect replay value?
Yes, I usually use cheats and exploits AFTER I finished a game.
Like the PS2 version of Monster Hunter.
Levitating out of bounds is a whole lot of fun in any given game.
Levitate cheats FTW~!-- But only for fun, not benefits.
I also tend to use infinite magic/power so I can do super crazy combos in action games like Devil May Cry, just for the fun of it, and thus making me play the game for the so many-eth time.
* In your opinion, what is cheating? Define it.
Cheating is when you cut off parts of a game to finish in record time, like Shadow Complex... Though I don't see that as a really bad thing. Heck the game itself CHALLENGES you to do it, so I can't really say it's cheating. But in games where it doesn't challenge you to do it, I see it as cheating.
Same goes for racing games, cutting off part of a track doesn't show your skill level, no, it shows how lame you are and how unskilled you are at driving.
I've seen some PGR 3/4 replays of the best players and they either scratch the sides to shave off time or slam into walls to quickly turn the car, because that's faster than breaking and turning. I see that as cheating as well.
Just having unlimited gold/magic/hp/power in any given RPG game is cheating.
I'll admit I use it too, but NEVER on my 1st or second play through.
Unless the game has no new game +, then I'll cheat if I feel like it.
To make a whole story short:
Cheating is cheap and lame, especially with systems like the 360's achievements and the PS3's trophies.
If you're like me, you should understand why.
What's the use of achieving goals if you don't "work" for it?:cheery:
# Bugs and Flaws
* From a player or developer perspective, how do you feel about unintentional game bugs and flaws?
From player perspective: Everyone makes mistakes, right? No big deal, as long as it doesn't effect the game's progress. If it does I'd be... slightly pissed.
From developer perspective: I hate it when I discover a mistake or bug in my games.
I guess I can be called a perfectionist.
Like Mr.VVulf said; "Bugs... should... be... squashed."
* How about players possibly taking advantage of those flaws, perhaps for their own benefit?
I can't hate anything more than that!
Seriously, it pisses me off to the brim of my calm nature.
OK I'm done ranting about that.# Cheat Implementation
* For developers, would you implement cheats in your projects?
NO! Well okay, I'm a bit too hard on that... But just no...
* Any cheats you're sneaking into your project?
If well-hidden and very complex-to-get items are considered cheats, then, yes.
# Tips and recommendations?
* Any cheats you'd recommend for other folks who may be working on a project?
nah, just keep it away from a project.
* Got a tip you'd like to share to the others on the subject of implementing cheats and unlockables?
Unlockables are always a good thing, go do it!
I'm not very creative on this end, but things such as the Excalibur or the Golden Chocobo in FF9 are not needed to finish a game, and are complex to get.
So yeah, I can't really add much on this part.
