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Inteligent debate: Christianity - deValdr - 10-20-2010

Are there any Christians in here? I am looking for answers. This is not a stfu-god-d0esnt-exist-fu thing, I'm just curious. I have a few questions, that I hope you can answer:

1. If god is almighty and good, why is there pain in the world?
A favorite. It has been asked so many times, but still something that needs to be mentioned, surely there must be some answer. In a world controlled by God, there is also a devil right? and he is the one making all the pain. Seems a reasonable answer, but god is not almighty then, right? What do you think?

2. Why is there so many other religions
Do these gods exist as well? Surely, God want us to believe that he exists, right? Why is your god any more likely to be real than all these thousands of other gods. Does he maybe appear in many shapes, (if he is everything it wouldn't have been strange at all) if he is maybe all these gods at once. Why does holy war exist then? Human corruption? that brings me onto my next question...

3. Why aren't we perfect
We aren't perfect, that's for sure. We steal, lie, rape, beat, kill, harass, (troll) and bomb each others. Because we were bad, and ate from the tree of wisdom? (If we were perfect at that point, we wouldn't have stolen the apple :[ )Why didn't he want us to have wisdom? It seem to me a metaphor on how the church have been banning science (wisdom/knowledge) troughout history. Anything I forgot? tell me :)

Inteligent debate: Christianity - EJlol - 10-20-2010

Yeah, you forgot that there also other religions and not only christianity. The same questions can be answered with most known religions, and not only christianity. I also like to know an answer to those 3 questions :P

Inteligent debate: Christianity - Agckuu_Coceg - 10-23-2010

I am not a Christian, but an expert on mythology and religion, so try to answer.

1) God gave us the opportunity to own the will of thinking, that we were not blind puppets in the hands of instincts - he created us in His image and likeness, so we are able to govern themselves. All evil and pain that goes on in the world, we create ourselves - at the instigation of the devil whether the consequences of ignorance or simply because of what we want to do is evil. God does not control our destinies, but only instructs us on the right path, so we walked away from this evil.

2) The principle that people are willing to believe in anything, and transmit it from generation to generation. Mythology of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, partly taken from earlier religions, which are connected with polytheism (for example the story about the Great Flood is related to the Sumerian story of Utnapishtim, the Sumerian gods who also commanded to build an ark), but as in Judaism and Christianity is only one God then they took the fact of the multitude of gods and replaced it with one. And Christianity had many such examples.

As to whether there is a god, no simple answer to this, since God - it is something supermaterial. I deny that I will not, but I can not fully trust. People must believe what they believe, so I do not bud induce anyone to a particular religion.

3) And why did he have prohibited the tree of wisdom? He created us perfect, and gave us everything. We did not need the wisdom - in fact provide us with might and main god. We still are in perfect security, rarely think about what will happen when it ends.

Apple also stands in this case, a Pandora's box that people do not open, even if it's something and given people.

Along with the wisdom of the earth appeared a lie - first of all evils, and after it went all the others. Prior to that, Adam and Eve could not lie - because they did not know what it means to "lie". The whole reason why Adam and Eve decided to bite the apple - they did not know the consequences, because they had no wisdom, because God provides them with everything you need as your own pets! So when people get wisdom, they suddenly began to feel that their life does not suit them: they saw that they were naked, and decided to sew clothes for themselves, but what they needed clothing, if they are safely used to live without it, because obviously in Paradise was not a cold climate? They, along with the wisdom gained independence in their own actions, and when God punished them for it, they have to choose between two fires because of the principle of faith - everyone believes in all then, in that he wants to believe, and this belief can be imposed to man - on this principle is built the majority of religions, sects, political systems and much more.

If you want clarification - please ask.

Inteligent debate: Christianity - deValdr - 10-23-2010

Agckuu_Coceg Wrote:I am not a Christian, but an expert on mythology and religion, so try to answer.

1) God gave us the opportunity to own the will of thinking, that we were not blind puppets in the hands of instincts - he created us in His image and likeness, so we are able to govern themselves. All evil and pain that goes on in the world, we create ourselves - at the instigation of the devil whether the consequences of ignorance or simply because of what we want to do is evil. God does not control our destinies, but only instructs us on the right path, so we walked away from this evil.

2) The principle that people are willing to believe in anything, and transmit it from generation to generation. Mythology of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, partly taken from earlier religions, which are connected with polytheism (for example the story about the Great Flood is related to the Sumerian story of Utnapishtim, the Sumerian gods who also commanded to build an ark), but as in Judaism and Christianity is only one God then they took the fact of the multitude of gods and replaced it with one. And Christianity had many such examples.
Apparently it didn't work out. I think would have done better if we had that wisdom ;)

Inteligent debate: Christianity - Jacket - 10-23-2010

WAY too long wall of text coming up :3 - it's too early in the morning to do this briefly, oops.

Valdred Wrote:In a world controlled by God, there is also a devil right? and he is the one making all the pain. Seems a reasonable answer, but god is not almighty then, right? What do you think?
Go back to the old testament. Satan (the devil), or rather Ha-Satan, is the tempter. It's in his name even (adversary, accuser, prosecutor - etc). He was a member of the "sons of God", a sort of council, which were involved in the great deluge as well as the story of Job. In both these situations God purposely fucked with us mortals in order to punish or test our resolve. Satan is the one who makes Lot's wife turn to look, in some school of thought. He was the force that when God decided to say someone was on the fence, or in need of being taken down a peg, or simply to double check, Satan went and gave us a wet willy. On god's own order.

The idea that God is omnipotent and exists in all time at once and all that jazz, it doesn't work in a straight line. That's where free will comes in so nicely. The "sees all time" and all that jazz works in a sort of fork way. Sees what happens if you go left, sees what happens if you go right. Free will let's you choose which, and Satan - by God's own words - is the car that has no brakes, that is forcing you too choose left or right.

In that sense it's like you being a political figure of great power. But you want to make sure your laws are being obliged. A particular target seems just too clean, so what do you do? Lay a trap of course. Someone you need to find their resolve, are they with you or against you? The vengeful god of course throws a wind to see which side of the fence they land on. Of course, being the don, he doesn't dirty his hands himself. Consider Satan, in this last example, the hit man.
Valdred Wrote:Why is there so many other religions
There are several versions, but the most accepted in the church would be that no other gods exist. Some may have been this one and all mighty God and have been misinterpreted as Zeus or whoever. The majority of it boils down to God is willing to let you believe what you want, so long as you're willing to live by that. Or rather, die by that. The whole "jealous god" thing and all, doesn't bode well for everyone else. As of modern thinking there is only one God, in Christianity I mean, and that all other gods are fiction. The reason they exist is free will and temptation - easy target.

One thing to remember is Christianity is based on Judaism, which was unique in it's heyday for being a rare religion indeed. It had a universal diety. Back in the day it wouldn't be unusual for you to pray to, let's say, Bob while I prayed to Sue. However Sue lives in a mountain, while Bob lives under a spring. As I'm traveling through the countryside I can't pray to Sue no more, I'm no longer in the shadow of her mountain. However I am at your home, with your spring god Bob. I would, as was the custom, pray to Bob for safe passage, and when I returned home go back to praising Sue. The early Jewish leaders didn't really care for this custom, and literally removed all rooting of thier God. This caused their God to exist anywhere, and allowed them to pray anywhere. It was a brilliant political move.

Early on other gods existed, but as politics moved on and the need to unify as well as strengthen your own ways evolved more and more for this small group, other gods were called false. It didn't start with Christianity, and is not an uncommon thing to call an enemy's god false, but as one of the older surviving religions, it holds a strong tradition. Christianity followed suit, and they both forgot the early roots, where other gods existed. Translation fixes and updates also censored words, to make other gods demons or angels.

The reason for holy wars is simple. God only protects his own peoples. Those people who are truly good and needed. Look at Sodom or Gamorra, or however you spell that 2nd one which isn't nearly as famous. Or let's not forget the regions of Admah and Zeboim (depending on your text). These were god's people who fell astray. So God wasn't going to protect them. It's a common thing to believe, if you and I are of the same religion and we both believe God is protecting us, well any victory we have is due to God's hand. So what happens when we feel defeat? Well, you did something to anger God then, didn't you? And as for other gods, well, they're wrong. And in MOST holy books of practically ALL religions it does state "KILL THE HERETIC!!! BWAAA!!!", although usually in less comical writing. The book of Leviticus alone tells you to kill practically anyone, including those of other religions. So even if God is real, then there is room for holy war. Even under one religion there is room. If you so much as feel someone has sinned to God, and politically it favors you for them to do so, then war -even holy war- is just a spear throw away. Add in other religions, political growth and merchant trading routes, and you've got a holy war that's been raging since before Rome nailed Mary's son to a cross.

Valdred Wrote:3. Why aren't we perfect
We were born with original sin. You mention the apple (fruit of knowledge - Western culture calls it an apple, but traditionally it was a fig), which wasn't actually "wisdom", although it is a good enough word for it. The fruit of knowledge didn't unlock all knowledge, what it did was unlock the knowledge of self. This is often called the knowledge of death, and it carries with it shame, hate, etc. This is why Cain murders Abel. However it false short, after all if you consider the story of Lilith. Fortunately that's not canon in Christianity, so screw it.

For the same reason as the last two, we aren't perfect because we need to be tempted. It's the same as a reward. We have to be allowed to screw up to get the award. When you have a child you don't give them a very nice allowance for the sake of being nice, you do it in exchange. They do well in school, help out around the house and act well. If not they don't get the allowance. The allowance here is of course the eternal heavenly reward. And Satan is, once more, the temptation we need to over come.

Quite frankly it's too simple. It's in every religion that uses a two sided battle. You have the good side who wants you to succeed but won't help you too much, because it NEEDS to be your struggle for you to overcome, and you have the temptation and push side - who often isn't even really evil.

As for the whole metaphor of the church banning science, remember the knowledge was self knowledge. Knowing that we will one day die, knowing that we were naked. The ignorance was removed, which bred desire and greed. We took everything for granted, simply because it was there. Adam saw Eve as Eve, not as the only woman in the world (remember, we tossed out Lilith of the equation) walking around naked. Animals didn't even eat meat until after the flood, there was no danger and there was no need. The apple gave us all that.

The apple - and I do prefer the fig motif better myself- is a metaphor for inner desire not being controlled. It was a metaphor for keeping earthly desires in check, do not experience them. It wasn't science it was gunning after, but human nature. Although a common misconception is that we WERE perfect, and that perfection was removed. We weren't, we were shown - if you take the Genesis story as 'written in stone' to be quite ignorant. We were given domain, but we still had questions. And God was not against our questions. Why he let us eat from the fruit is one thing that has too many answers, but it all boils down to free will. The snake, another creation of god (though some claim to be Satan), is simply another method for temptation, and our option to over come temptation. After all, if we were perfect why would we need to aspire for something?

The story really comes from the suffering at the time of it's writing, and an excuse. It easily explained many medical mysteries such as menstruation, and gave several ethnic groups a parallel (the various people sprung from the different loins of the original family). But most importantly it put us, like most religions, into a sort of debt we have to pay back. In this case we have to pay back original sin, and any further inkling to sin we have, in order to gain the mortgage on our soul.

And that's how I have it from my various religious schools and studying, as a child I was enrolled by my parents in numerous schools (Catholic, Lutheran, etc), and they all boil down to this. Looking at it out of boredom boils to this too. Just reading the Bible and other scripture really. Although I'm not religious, and my answers would all boil down to "allegory for human nature" to "just sounds cool" with a sprinkling of "people need to believe in something better" this is what I was always asking, and this is what I was often taught.
For the record I am a post-theist and am not religious, but damn I've had to take a lot of lectures on the subject haha.

Inteligent debate: Christianity - AGAFURO - 10-23-2010

What I have the absolutely hardest time buying is the whole "born with original sin" deal. Being a sinner since birth because of something someone else supposedly did a long time ago totally rubs me the wrong way. It's too similar to the "my forefathers hated your forefathers, so therefore I have to hate you" logic. =P

And while the thing about other gods has already been explained pretty well... when it comes to the "god is willing to let you believe what you want, so long as you're willing to live by that", I can't help but wonder why "god" in that case would make the rule "thou shall have no other gods than me". There's an obvious contradiction, if you'd go by that reasoning.

...well, my knowledge about the bible isn't really something to brag about as I'm not religulous and never actually bothered reading the first page of it. So I might have missed out on some important point.

Inteligent debate: Christianity - Jacket - 10-23-2010

The "thou shall have no other gods" isn't really a contradiction. A simple metaphor would be similar to the McArthy Era in the United States History. There, McCarthyism rode with a huge "THOU SHALL NOT" type of hatred towards all things that weren't their form of democracy. It was effectively a "thou shall have no other politics" in effect. You were completely able to be a communist or socialist, or anything else you wanted to be, so long as when caught you were willing to deal with the consequences. Not a fair metaphor, I know.

The original sin thing rubs a LOT of people the wrong way. One thing I forgot to mention is it DOES NOT exist in the Hebrew scriptures. Like Limbo and Satan's role it was added on and later expanded on in Christianity, and depending on how you feel about when the various scriptures in the New Testament were written, and their possible original wordings, might not even exist. In fact, if you ignore just one interpretation of three quotes from Peter, the whole thing vanishes. Seriously.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" is from Romans 5:12, found in the New Testament. Unfortunately it does not actually state original sin's motive or practical existence. It merely states that Adam sinned, and that that sin was passed on. It doesn't state why, nor does it state a purpose. The simple truth is, outside of a few letters written by Peter Original Sin does not exist at all in the Old or New Testament.

The ironic thing is if you DO believe in Original sin, and you DO believe in what was written about the three days in which Jesus died, then you do NOT have Original Sin anymore, since it was effectively lifted (again, an interpretation) by his opening of heaven. You see, in Christianity Jesus was Crucified and spent 3 days in the abyss, in which he took all the souls (hell, he took Moses) and brought them to heaven. He opened the gates, and absolved all standing sins. In that interpretation and tradition, Original Sin DID exist, but exists no longer.

The reason it could have existed is the very same thought as "my forefathers hated yours so I hate you" idea. Don't forget the Old Testament DOES say to punish those who break the biblical laws, and their families. Up to "seven generations" which is simply a nice way of saying "until they are dead" heh. Seven, along with forty, are numbers that generally mean "shit load of time" and go on past literal means.

The funny thing is, and I should mention this, is that there is actually no mention of you or me, who do NOT believe in God, going to hell in the bible - Old or New Testament. Official scriptures of both the Jewish and Christian faiths actually have no mention in it. Granted it does state wrongs for not believing, and punishments that fit into THIS life (or this world - however you view it), but nothing speaks of an eternal damnation or sin. People often confuse the 10 Commandments as sins, but a sin is actually more metaphysical. Greed is a sin, not keeping the Sabbath holy is a crime. Not all crimes are sins. Having another diety isn't a sin, it's just not what you SHOULD be doing. In the end, and this is found in various scripture, you aren't judged by your beliefs. You're judged by your sins. You CAN be a very good person, and be an Atheist, and go to Heaven (if this is as written as is).

This is of course an interpretation. Some schools of thought prefer other methods. And as my earlier post regarding holy wars states, there's room for hatred on all fronts. And so hatred begets hate, and political control begets followship, and you're either with us or against us. And one of best ways, even in non-religious methods, such as with just normal politics, is guilt. The governor race here, for example, has some candidates telling you how YOU did wrong by the city. You voted for the wrong party (believed in the wrong diety), and you have to make right (sin), and you were raised by the wrong people (original sin), so vote for us (absolve) and we'll have a great city (heaven).