Inteligent debate: Christianity
WAY too long wall of text coming up :3 - it's too early in the morning to do this briefly, oops.
The idea that God is omnipotent and exists in all time at once and all that jazz, it doesn't work in a straight line. That's where free will comes in so nicely. The "sees all time" and all that jazz works in a sort of fork way. Sees what happens if you go left, sees what happens if you go right. Free will let's you choose which, and Satan - by God's own words - is the car that has no brakes, that is forcing you too choose left or right.
In that sense it's like you being a political figure of great power. But you want to make sure your laws are being obliged. A particular target seems just too clean, so what do you do? Lay a trap of course. Someone you need to find their resolve, are they with you or against you? The vengeful god of course throws a wind to see which side of the fence they land on. Of course, being the don, he doesn't dirty his hands himself. Consider Satan, in this last example, the hit man.
One thing to remember is Christianity is based on Judaism, which was unique in it's heyday for being a rare religion indeed. It had a universal diety. Back in the day it wouldn't be unusual for you to pray to, let's say, Bob while I prayed to Sue. However Sue lives in a mountain, while Bob lives under a spring. As I'm traveling through the countryside I can't pray to Sue no more, I'm no longer in the shadow of her mountain. However I am at your home, with your spring god Bob. I would, as was the custom, pray to Bob for safe passage, and when I returned home go back to praising Sue. The early Jewish leaders didn't really care for this custom, and literally removed all rooting of thier God. This caused their God to exist anywhere, and allowed them to pray anywhere. It was a brilliant political move.
Early on other gods existed, but as politics moved on and the need to unify as well as strengthen your own ways evolved more and more for this small group, other gods were called false. It didn't start with Christianity, and is not an uncommon thing to call an enemy's god false, but as one of the older surviving religions, it holds a strong tradition. Christianity followed suit, and they both forgot the early roots, where other gods existed. Translation fixes and updates also censored words, to make other gods demons or angels.
The reason for holy wars is simple. God only protects his own peoples. Those people who are truly good and needed. Look at Sodom or Gamorra, or however you spell that 2nd one which isn't nearly as famous. Or let's not forget the regions of Admah and Zeboim (depending on your text). These were god's people who fell astray. So God wasn't going to protect them. It's a common thing to believe, if you and I are of the same religion and we both believe God is protecting us, well any victory we have is due to God's hand. So what happens when we feel defeat? Well, you did something to anger God then, didn't you? And as for other gods, well, they're wrong. And in MOST holy books of practically ALL religions it does state "KILL THE HERETIC!!! BWAAA!!!", although usually in less comical writing. The book of Leviticus alone tells you to kill practically anyone, including those of other religions. So even if God is real, then there is room for holy war. Even under one religion there is room. If you so much as feel someone has sinned to God, and politically it favors you for them to do so, then war -even holy war- is just a spear throw away. Add in other religions, political growth and merchant trading routes, and you've got a holy war that's been raging since before Rome nailed Mary's son to a cross.
For the same reason as the last two, we aren't perfect because we need to be tempted. It's the same as a reward. We have to be allowed to screw up to get the award. When you have a child you don't give them a very nice allowance for the sake of being nice, you do it in exchange. They do well in school, help out around the house and act well. If not they don't get the allowance. The allowance here is of course the eternal heavenly reward. And Satan is, once more, the temptation we need to over come.
Quite frankly it's too simple. It's in every religion that uses a two sided battle. You have the good side who wants you to succeed but won't help you too much, because it NEEDS to be your struggle for you to overcome, and you have the temptation and push side - who often isn't even really evil.
As for the whole metaphor of the church banning science, remember the knowledge was self knowledge. Knowing that we will one day die, knowing that we were naked. The ignorance was removed, which bred desire and greed. We took everything for granted, simply because it was there. Adam saw Eve as Eve, not as the only woman in the world (remember, we tossed out Lilith of the equation) walking around naked. Animals didn't even eat meat until after the flood, there was no danger and there was no need. The apple gave us all that.
The apple - and I do prefer the fig motif better myself- is a metaphor for inner desire not being controlled. It was a metaphor for keeping earthly desires in check, do not experience them. It wasn't science it was gunning after, but human nature. Although a common misconception is that we WERE perfect, and that perfection was removed. We weren't, we were shown - if you take the Genesis story as 'written in stone' to be quite ignorant. We were given domain, but we still had questions. And God was not against our questions. Why he let us eat from the fruit is one thing that has too many answers, but it all boils down to free will. The snake, another creation of god (though some claim to be Satan), is simply another method for temptation, and our option to over come temptation. After all, if we were perfect why would we need to aspire for something?
The story really comes from the suffering at the time of it's writing, and an excuse. It easily explained many medical mysteries such as menstruation, and gave several ethnic groups a parallel (the various people sprung from the different loins of the original family). But most importantly it put us, like most religions, into a sort of debt we have to pay back. In this case we have to pay back original sin, and any further inkling to sin we have, in order to gain the mortgage on our soul.
And that's how I have it from my various religious schools and studying, as a child I was enrolled by my parents in numerous schools (Catholic, Lutheran, etc), and they all boil down to this. Looking at it out of boredom boils to this too. Just reading the Bible and other scripture really. Although I'm not religious, and my answers would all boil down to "allegory for human nature" to "just sounds cool" with a sprinkling of "people need to believe in something better" this is what I was always asking, and this is what I was often taught.
For the record I am a post-theist and am not religious, but damn I've had to take a lot of lectures on the subject haha.
Valdred Wrote:In a world controlled by God, there is also a devil right? and he is the one making all the pain. Seems a reasonable answer, but god is not almighty then, right? What do you think?Go back to the old testament. Satan (the devil), or rather Ha-Satan, is the tempter. It's in his name even (adversary, accuser, prosecutor - etc). He was a member of the "sons of God", a sort of council, which were involved in the great deluge as well as the story of Job. In both these situations God purposely fucked with us mortals in order to punish or test our resolve. Satan is the one who makes Lot's wife turn to look, in some school of thought. He was the force that when God decided to say someone was on the fence, or in need of being taken down a peg, or simply to double check, Satan went and gave us a wet willy. On god's own order.
The idea that God is omnipotent and exists in all time at once and all that jazz, it doesn't work in a straight line. That's where free will comes in so nicely. The "sees all time" and all that jazz works in a sort of fork way. Sees what happens if you go left, sees what happens if you go right. Free will let's you choose which, and Satan - by God's own words - is the car that has no brakes, that is forcing you too choose left or right.
In that sense it's like you being a political figure of great power. But you want to make sure your laws are being obliged. A particular target seems just too clean, so what do you do? Lay a trap of course. Someone you need to find their resolve, are they with you or against you? The vengeful god of course throws a wind to see which side of the fence they land on. Of course, being the don, he doesn't dirty his hands himself. Consider Satan, in this last example, the hit man.
Valdred Wrote:Why is there so many other religionsThere are several versions, but the most accepted in the church would be that no other gods exist. Some may have been this one and all mighty God and have been misinterpreted as Zeus or whoever. The majority of it boils down to God is willing to let you believe what you want, so long as you're willing to live by that. Or rather, die by that. The whole "jealous god" thing and all, doesn't bode well for everyone else. As of modern thinking there is only one God, in Christianity I mean, and that all other gods are fiction. The reason they exist is free will and temptation - easy target.
One thing to remember is Christianity is based on Judaism, which was unique in it's heyday for being a rare religion indeed. It had a universal diety. Back in the day it wouldn't be unusual for you to pray to, let's say, Bob while I prayed to Sue. However Sue lives in a mountain, while Bob lives under a spring. As I'm traveling through the countryside I can't pray to Sue no more, I'm no longer in the shadow of her mountain. However I am at your home, with your spring god Bob. I would, as was the custom, pray to Bob for safe passage, and when I returned home go back to praising Sue. The early Jewish leaders didn't really care for this custom, and literally removed all rooting of thier God. This caused their God to exist anywhere, and allowed them to pray anywhere. It was a brilliant political move.
Early on other gods existed, but as politics moved on and the need to unify as well as strengthen your own ways evolved more and more for this small group, other gods were called false. It didn't start with Christianity, and is not an uncommon thing to call an enemy's god false, but as one of the older surviving religions, it holds a strong tradition. Christianity followed suit, and they both forgot the early roots, where other gods existed. Translation fixes and updates also censored words, to make other gods demons or angels.
The reason for holy wars is simple. God only protects his own peoples. Those people who are truly good and needed. Look at Sodom or Gamorra, or however you spell that 2nd one which isn't nearly as famous. Or let's not forget the regions of Admah and Zeboim (depending on your text). These were god's people who fell astray. So God wasn't going to protect them. It's a common thing to believe, if you and I are of the same religion and we both believe God is protecting us, well any victory we have is due to God's hand. So what happens when we feel defeat? Well, you did something to anger God then, didn't you? And as for other gods, well, they're wrong. And in MOST holy books of practically ALL religions it does state "KILL THE HERETIC!!! BWAAA!!!", although usually in less comical writing. The book of Leviticus alone tells you to kill practically anyone, including those of other religions. So even if God is real, then there is room for holy war. Even under one religion there is room. If you so much as feel someone has sinned to God, and politically it favors you for them to do so, then war -even holy war- is just a spear throw away. Add in other religions, political growth and merchant trading routes, and you've got a holy war that's been raging since before Rome nailed Mary's son to a cross.
Valdred Wrote:3. Why aren't we perfectWe were born with original sin. You mention the apple (fruit of knowledge - Western culture calls it an apple, but traditionally it was a fig), which wasn't actually "wisdom", although it is a good enough word for it. The fruit of knowledge didn't unlock all knowledge, what it did was unlock the knowledge of self. This is often called the knowledge of death, and it carries with it shame, hate, etc. This is why Cain murders Abel. However it false short, after all if you consider the story of Lilith. Fortunately that's not canon in Christianity, so screw it.
For the same reason as the last two, we aren't perfect because we need to be tempted. It's the same as a reward. We have to be allowed to screw up to get the award. When you have a child you don't give them a very nice allowance for the sake of being nice, you do it in exchange. They do well in school, help out around the house and act well. If not they don't get the allowance. The allowance here is of course the eternal heavenly reward. And Satan is, once more, the temptation we need to over come.
Quite frankly it's too simple. It's in every religion that uses a two sided battle. You have the good side who wants you to succeed but won't help you too much, because it NEEDS to be your struggle for you to overcome, and you have the temptation and push side - who often isn't even really evil.
As for the whole metaphor of the church banning science, remember the knowledge was self knowledge. Knowing that we will one day die, knowing that we were naked. The ignorance was removed, which bred desire and greed. We took everything for granted, simply because it was there. Adam saw Eve as Eve, not as the only woman in the world (remember, we tossed out Lilith of the equation) walking around naked. Animals didn't even eat meat until after the flood, there was no danger and there was no need. The apple gave us all that.
The apple - and I do prefer the fig motif better myself- is a metaphor for inner desire not being controlled. It was a metaphor for keeping earthly desires in check, do not experience them. It wasn't science it was gunning after, but human nature. Although a common misconception is that we WERE perfect, and that perfection was removed. We weren't, we were shown - if you take the Genesis story as 'written in stone' to be quite ignorant. We were given domain, but we still had questions. And God was not against our questions. Why he let us eat from the fruit is one thing that has too many answers, but it all boils down to free will. The snake, another creation of god (though some claim to be Satan), is simply another method for temptation, and our option to over come temptation. After all, if we were perfect why would we need to aspire for something?
The story really comes from the suffering at the time of it's writing, and an excuse. It easily explained many medical mysteries such as menstruation, and gave several ethnic groups a parallel (the various people sprung from the different loins of the original family). But most importantly it put us, like most religions, into a sort of debt we have to pay back. In this case we have to pay back original sin, and any further inkling to sin we have, in order to gain the mortgage on our soul.
And that's how I have it from my various religious schools and studying, as a child I was enrolled by my parents in numerous schools (Catholic, Lutheran, etc), and they all boil down to this. Looking at it out of boredom boils to this too. Just reading the Bible and other scripture really. Although I'm not religious, and my answers would all boil down to "allegory for human nature" to "just sounds cool" with a sprinkling of "people need to believe in something better" this is what I was always asking, and this is what I was often taught.
For the record I am a post-theist and am not religious, but damn I've had to take a lot of lectures on the subject haha.
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