(08-18-2015, 05:50 AM)RosyPosy Wrote:

(08-18-2015, 05:00 AM)Bounty Hunter Lani Wrote: First-- prove to me that Wakka stays the racist guy he always was after the Home incident. He clearly changed, especially after finding out about Yuna's lineage. 

"Boom like happy festival fireworks"
-wakka trying to "cheer" up rikku after witnissing home being burned down by yevon.

Second-- He didn't know about Yevon's deception at the point where he remarks he can't believe they're fighting a Maester. That was the first battle with Seymour, which was the battle that killed him and made him an Unsent. 
- he reitterates this all the way up to the last time you fight saemore And the last time -5th time fighting saemore- hes finally over it.
In fact hes not totally dedicated to the idea until they fight yunaleska.

Third-- The point of the Summoners and the Pilgrimage is to make the Summoner strong enough for the Final Aeon summoning, which destroys Sin and gives a Calm that lasts for a while. After the Calm is over, Sin returns due to Yu Yevon taking over the Final Aeon's body. 
The maesters are fully aware that yu yevon is no diety nor an inevitability- theyre all nihilists who think death the only salvation- I simply disagree that this level of stupidity is actually as broad- I still think they get nothing from propogating the religion to fuel sins returns- they know the pilgrimage is worthless.

Fourth-- The ones who give you Aeons are NOT ghosts, they're the Fayth that sacrificed themselves to become the Aeons. Seymour's mother became Anima, and you can get her and even use her.
They are ghosts- however they re-purposed themselves to use their spirit to help defeat sin, They died long ago when sin first attacked Zanarkand.(also zanarkand did not have summoners- which means none of them were sent, and they didnt even have a problem before sin with monsters so I think SIN yu yevon specefically forces the change as sin comes near(because sin often attracts fiends- this may be due to his own magic.rather then a natural conversion- but its left vague for writters convenience.)

Fifth-- I'm not sure the Maesters even support Sin. It's an inevitability that Sin returns, because they believe the Final Summoning is the only way to kill it, which in turn makes Yu Yevon take it over and it repeats again. They run the show, so the power is there. 
the maester that auron knows spills the beans that they know during yunas trial/
they allow the pilgrimage for hope only- because it does them no good to correct them- however it doesnt explian why its explicate in their religion when they have no stake at all and are infact more in danger if summoners discover the truth. thats why theyre so quick to discard their own rules to capture yuna- but ultimately it makes no sense for them to allow summoners through. and I must be right about that- two summoners defeated them.

Sixth-- I'm not sure on the rules of the Unsent is either, but most people don't stay Unsent for over a few years before becoming Fiends. The Unsent resent the living, according to some people in the game, which is what makes them turn into Fiends. I'm sure if we had watched over many of them before they got Sent, they may have turned into Fiends eventually.
(I already adressed this up there) zanarkand creates a plot hole for you. theres no summoners in zanarkand, before sin.

Finally, limiting the equipment to classes when you could originally equip anything and get nice and unique setups? I find it annoying. I wanna have a bow with some heavy armor. What's wrong with that? 
Well, I can't do that in IZJS. My choice was taken from me. 

I still disagree- choice is only worthwhile if those choices have meaningful conclusions. with jobs- you have to think of class chemistry- as well as how you want to play personally- when you have access to everything you get all the licenses- and you equip the objective best armor and weapon on everyone- and you can still use the best magiks. some weapons were just not as good because you had better alternatives- why use a knife or ninja sword? you could use a katana or sword and shield combo for better effect. There was no reason to run a full mage- everyone could get the cure and raise spells. everybody could use Shock objectively the best spell cause its animation time was so low. and you could spam it pretty often.
the jobs give more context to the great weapon they made- the way they made guns and bombs was so neat but rarely used because why use them? you could get more damage output from an axe then a gun. See what I mean? all the combos are still avialable- its just now each class has its own usefulness, and your gambits are more important- as they should be- they also rebalanced the weapons and repriced everything. they changed it specifically because player data showed players didnt choose unique loadouts. they listened to their data and fans to make it more important as a feature. and I think that offers better expirience- I have a red mage-white mage- machinist archer- samurai - and vann as the thief class- and Ive never felt better about my load outs before- Im editing my gambits alot more and changing equipment often to improve their personal preferences in places I want them in. ALSO

the zodiac has a speed hack built right into the game- that way I can fight with the quickness and it doesnt ruin the music. So grinding is made more tolerable. which I appreciate- and hope to helll thats what the remake is like again- just more weapons prettier designes- NO LOADING MAPS! and some new enemies and places to go. hell more jobs would also be nice- maybe a bangaa- or seeq could be in the guest slot when a character like larsa isnt in their. Im just so excited Ihope it comes out soonish!

1 - Everyone pretty much shuts down Wakka after he says the fireworks thing. I said AFTER the Home incident, that's still during it. He remains pretty quiet and reserved for a while after the Home incident, and changes his ways after that. 
You failed to prove your point, Rosy. 

2 - You just proved my point in Wakka changing by Yunalesca. He realizes pretty shortly afterwards that he has to find another way to defeat Sin-- outside what has been already set via the Pilgrimage. There's a ton that goes on after that, but I dun wanna spoil TOO much for people ._.

3 - Only the higher-ups in Yevon knew of this stuff, and they perpetuated it. 
Also, the Final Aeon was the only one strong enough to defeat Sin head-on. Nobody thought of GOING INSIDE SIN and killing Yu Yevon from the inside! And without getting out some of the forbidden machina and flying inside (I know, Yevon uses machina that is forbidden, they're hypocrites), they wouldn't have even been able to put the plan into effect anyway. The whole world would've known of their hypocrisy if they did that! All power over people is gone!

4 - Zanarkand had Summoners. That's where the whole thing started. They had Summoners AND Machina, but they didn't worship Yevon, because it didn't exist at the time. I think Maechan the old man storyteller goes over this story, you should find that. I think it was... at Gagazet?
Anyway, Yu Yevon takes over Aeons. Look at the final battle. 
The Fayth aren't ghosts. Many of them gave themselves to become Fayth. That's also said by many-- And guess what. You have to give up your guardian to get the Final Summoning! More proof they're people who were alive, and gave themselves. 


5 - Auron does spill the beans-- of what he knew. That was only because he was one who went on a pilgrimage with Braska as a Guardian and died during a battle with Yunalesca. He stayed unsent after that, and even Auron didn't know of another way in destroying Sin. None of the Maesters knew, all they knew was the Final Summoning and sacrificing a Guardian at the end of the Pilgrimage. Yuna and Guardians rebel at the end of the Pilgrimage instead of perpetuating the cycle and sacrificing one of their close friends. This is also the turning point for Wakka, as stated earlier. He knows he has to work together and do whatever he can to defeat Sin outside of the religion he now knows was super-corrupt and perpetuated the cycle via Yunalesca. 

6 - There was no need for the Final Summoning. There were Summoners, but none strong enough to defeat Sin. I said it earlier that Maechan goes over this.

Finally--
I ought to take a picture of my setups of my Final Fantasy XII characters end-game. Their setups look far from what you imagine with clone ultimate crud everywhere. I have three Zodiac Spears, but I only ever use 1 or 2 at a time. Ninja sword and stuff have nice combo rates, bows are great for keeping a character safe, etc. I strategize quite a lot when it comes to Gambits and equipment. 
The IZJS has a lot of features not in the other version, which actually annoys me greatly. If they make an HD version, they ought to give a choice to toggle between the class system or an all-out system. I don't know a single person that has cloned equipment people in their party except hackers and people who farm Grand Armors for hours like morons. No thanks to that 
Give the people choice, don't take it away just because you like the IZJS. A lot of people I know DON'T like the system, and wouldn't get the HD version if it's forced on them. It's a lot more unpopular than people think. Most in the international areas in this world didn't even know of the other version for a long time, but they say IZJS /may/ be better only because of features and bonus stuff that the International gamers got to replace their lack of choice in equipment and spells. 

To Renny-kun:
I thought 7 was boring as well. It was my first Final Fantasy, and I barely made it 2 hours in before going to play Legend of Legaia and Dino Crisis. 
Final Fantasy 8 was what gave me my love of Final Fantasy, and the rest were just gravy on taters 

X-2 and beyond screwed the story big-time. X-3 especially. I seriously hope they don't make X-3 a reality, because that novella destroys all that is canon.

X-2 also had an extra scene that tied it to Final Fantasy VII,  and the connection was confirmed by Square. 

To Ahzoh:


Final Fantasy is a pretty good series that's usually worth playing, though there are some black sheep that many argue about. It may be worth your time to get your hands on one or two Final Fantasy games and play them. (Or not.)
And yeah, Tidus's fate is heartbreaking. The game gave people emotions and kept people invested from beginning to end. That's why I think so many loved it. 
The end made many a man and woman cry. 

To JayRay:


Final Fantasy VIII! 

(08-18-2015, 08:22 AM)Ahzoh Wrote: I never played any Final Fantasy games, though I have watched my bro play X when I was younger...
The story I find a lot more saddening than at the time when I was younger, especially Tidus's fate.

yes tidus fate is rather sad- and the motif of burden is strong in the game, its def one of its strengths- which is good cause comedy and depth were not XD

(08-18-2015, 02:05 PM)Bounty Hunter Lani Wrote:

(08-18-2015, 05:50 AM)RosyPosy Wrote:

(08-18-2015, 05:00 AM)Bounty Hunter Lani Wrote: 1 - Everyone pretty much shuts down Wakka after he says the fireworks thing. I said AFTER the Home incident, that's still during it. He remains pretty quiet and reserved for a while after the Home incident, and changes his ways after that. 

You failed to prove your point, Rosy. 
I dont know how thats failure. That is literally During the event. Shut down or no- theres no recovering from that, Wakka is an insensitive idiot. and theres no saving him. kinda like an adam sandler flick- 

2 - You just proved my point in Wakka changing by Yunalesca. He realizes pretty shortly afterwards that he has to find another way to defeat Sin-- outside what has been already set via the Pilgrimage. There's a ton that goes on after that, but I dun wanna spoil TOO much for people ._.
IT TOOK HIM TILL YUNALESKA TO FINALLy GIVe IN. Thats after three fights with a measter and yunas trial and the Home Sequence.HOW DENSE IS THAT BIGOT?!


3 - Only the higher-ups in Yevon knew of this stuff, and they perpetuated it. 
Also, the Final Aeon was the only one strong enough to defeat Sin head-on. Nobody thought of GOING INSIDE SIN and killing Yu Yevon from the inside! And without getting out some of the forbidden machina and flying inside (I know, Yevon uses machina that is forbidden, they're hypocrites), they wouldn't have even been able to put the plan into effect anyway. The whole world would've known of their hypocrisy if they did that! All power over people is gone!

again sin is not relevant to their power, having summoners up there with the fayth threatens their job security more than anything- Point proven by the in game hero- Yuna. 

4 - Zanarkand had Summoners. That's where the whole thing started. They had Summoners AND Machina, but they didn't worship Yevon, because it didn't exist at the time. I think Maechan the old man storyteller goes over this story, you should find that. I think it was... at Gagazet?
Ok yes I looked it up on the wiki- summoners existed yu yevon was Zanarkands best.- the fayth fiends summons and unsent are all the same- this is well known. the same thing that happens when yuna sends the dead- happens when tidus fades away- and when she summons an aeon the same life force can be seen. life in this universe works on very different rules and two of them are not explianed at all- why some can remain unsent- and how faith become summons by choice rather than fiends. 


5 - Auron does spill the beans-- of what he knew. 
Im going to stop you there- I said the Measter that knows auron- Kenoc I believe his name was. hes garbed in yellow and is close to Seamore through the first couple of acts, and very wary of him. him and lord mika both know yunaleskas fate as well as the fact that sin is yu yevon in armor. however the in game explanation is that they allow these pilgrimages to keep hope alive- because theyre nihilists. 
I still think theres no reason For the measters to have any laws in their religion condoning or dismissing machina(as that shit doesnt help sin at all) and I dont see what they get back from sin still. There is absolutely no reason to allow pilgrimages. it blows theyre cover./


Finally--
I ought to take a picture of my setups of my Final Fantasy XII characters end-game. Their setups look far from what you imagine with clone ultimate crud everywhere. I have three Zodiac Spears, but I only ever use 1 or 2 at a time. Ninja sword and stuff have nice combo rates, bows are great for keeping a character safe, etc. I strategize quite a lot when it comes to Gambits and equipment. 
The IZJS has a lot of features not in the other version, which actually annoys me greatly. If they make an HD version, they ought to give a choice to toggle between the class system or an all-out system.

why does that matter? technically they didnt take any options away- everything on the license board is simply rebalanced to make it more interesting and thats a good thing. having archers and Tanky ass knights using cura or Float all the time is just stupid powerful.the game was already hard but the design choices for weapons needed to be re-balanced- to buff some and make them usable- and really did you ever use a handbomb? they work on the same logic as an axe. So if you liked axes- you probably used axes instead of handbombs. what about knives? not ninja swords- just knives.- Measures? did you ever strat a measure in to replace the spells you have ACCESS TO NO MATTER WHAT?! likes seriously , great weapon idea made totally useless by the fact anyone could use magic.
Pick up the international Zodiac jobs version of the game I beg thee- youll have way more fun than you know. Its objectively the best version of the game. It makes my choices matter, so I feel better about them. thats good design.

Can we stop quoting entire conversations please? It's pointless, just copy a small specific section.
It makes it unreadable too.

I said AFTER the event Rosy, that's still as they're watching it explode. So yeah, you failed to make your point on AFTER the Home incident. 
Wakka is long over his racism by Yunalesca. He already knew Rikku was Al Bhed, and accepted her as a friend and companion. He was riding in the airship that was "Forbidden", and even though he was hesitant at first, he was changing by that point alone. 
Yeah, it takes a long time for someone to eliminate their hatred for a group of people after they've heard so many bad things about them. You probably don't like people who eat baby skulls for breakfast, do you? Well that's kind of an extreme way of what he thought of Al Bhed-- heathens who do everything against what he believed. 
If you were living in that world, and you didn't know Yevon was corrupt and Sin was destroying cities right in front of you, and you were told it's because of machina that the Al Bhed still use... would you really sit there and say "You know what? I think Al Bhed people are cool, because they use machina that are causing Sin to kill people I care about!"
No, you wouldn't. 
And don't say you would be some kinda rebel, because that's just using your current mind in the video game world's average person mindset. Wakka wasn't the only one who hated Al Bhed. Many did.

As I also said, they don't worship Sin, they do their best to ELIMINATE Sin. Why would anyone WANT Sin to kill everyone they know? Not even the Maesters wanted that. Otherwise, they wouldn't run the temples to get the Fayth for Summoners to get stronger and eventually DEFEAT Sin!  THEY DIDN'T KNOW SIN WAS BEATABLE BY GOING INSIDE. UGH.

And no, Summoners don't threaten their job security at all. It's their job to lead Summoners to get the Final Aeon and defeat Sin, so losing their job security makes no sense. Sin will always come back as long as they Final Summoning is used to destroy Sin. It kills the Summoner and the Final Aeon is taken over, so more Summoners have to go through pilgrimages just to defeat Sin again. 
Their jobs are secure as long as the cycle repeats, so tell me how it destroys their security again? 

And yeah, I misread what you wrote, but the point still stands. The Maesters didn't know there was a way to defeat Sin for good. They only knew of the Final Summoning. 
You wanna take out a sword and fight Sin head-on like the Crusaders did? Good luck, Rosy. Try not to end up like Chappu. 

The Bahamut Aeon does blow Yevon's cover, but by then, the Summoner is likely brainwashed to the point of "Well, I made it this far. Yevon says this machina in the temple is okay machina, so I can ride around and get Bahamut!"
Yuna and gang were already aware that Yevon was screwing with people by then, and Wakka is surprised to see such a large amount of machina there-- which is where he discovers Yevon's hypocrisy in full action. I believe one of the members (Maybe Auron) asks him which machina is okay machina and which isn't, and Wakka was sure this machina was BANNED by Yevon. A change is comin' for ol' Wakka! 
If you don't accept people who have changed, Rosy, then I can't do anything for you. That's a horrible way to act towards people who have a total 180 mindset change to think how you think. 
If someone changed their way of thinking to yours, would you still bash on them because of what they USED TO believe? Because that's what you're doing to poor Wakka. 

And what's wrong with anyone using magic? In Final Fantasy Tactics, anyone could use magic, and you could even switch classes or put it as a secondary. 
I don't want the IZJS. End of freaking story. It sucks. I have played it. 
No thank you to that.

EDIT: I think I'm gonna leave it at this, because I don't want it to get any bigger than it needs to be. I doubt I'll ever convince you to not hate someone, no matter how petty the reason may be, and you're probably always gonna see less choice as more choice, so I honestly just give up on trying at all.

(08-18-2015, 04:27 PM)MetalRenard Wrote: Can we stop quoting entire conversations please? It's pointless, just copy a small specific section.
It makes it unreadable too.

but I like to keep context.

Then sum up their point in 3-5 words and they'll know what you're referring to. ^_^

(08-18-2015, 04:38 PM)Bounty Hunter Lani Wrote: I said AFTER the event Rosy, that's still as they're watching it explode. So yeah, you failed to make your point on AFTER the Home incident. 
: Moving the goalpost. this was after. Theyre escaping it on the ship- to ever utter it is still not hero material and inexcusable. 
there is absolutely no excuse worth hearing. its moral infancy to ever be a racist. he blames the al behd because his brother chose to fight with a gun instead of the sword he gave him. for this he tells rikku- a friend - that her home blowing up is " like happy festival fireworks" like I said you cant save him. ignorence on that level is always inexcusable. his reluctance to join his parties resolve makes him a bad character.

As I also said, they don't worship Sin,  they wouldn't run the temples to get the Fayth for Summoners to get stronger and eventually DEFEAT Sin!  THEY DIDN'T KNOW SIN WAS BEATABLE BY GOING INSIDE.
Irrelevant- they knew about the last summon and yunaleska- Seamore reveals that. no where do they need to know if hes beatable- but they knew for a fact the last summon turns into sin. they just accepted that despite it being a huge threat to their power- and again my point is proven by Yunas existence. every summoner who goes on the pilgrimage has to somehow agree that everything they learned was a lie and that was ok because the world needs to end to be saved. I just dont see why they would allow that to happen. It was a goshdarn miracle a summoner hasnt decided to expose them earlier for the liars they are. Sense Literally every summoner whose ever went to zanarkand would have had the oppertunity to expose the yevon religion and the Maesters.
Sin is irrelevant to that process except in the fact that somehow youre supposed to have some mutual benefit to this. there really isnt any- It woulda been better if the yevon religion truly bought the teaching instead being manipulated by yevon cause that would ultimately make more sense. instead both are corrupt and niether seems to have a stake in eithers existence. sin coupld wipe out yevon and still get summoners to go on pilgrimages- yevon could amass power and never send out summoners or outlaw machina. At no point do they ever seem to have a tie to each other. and thats a plot hole. by definition. 

And no, Summoners don't threaten their job security at all. It's their job to lead Summoners to get the Final Aeon and defeat Sin, so losing their job security makes no sense. Sin will always come back as long as they Final Summoning is used to destroy Sin. It kills the Summoner and the Final Aeon is taken over, so more Summoners have to go through pilgrimages just to defeat Sin again. 
Their jobs are secure as long as the cycle repeats, so tell me how it destroys their security again?   
because these summoners have to agree every single time- again YUNA EXISTS Thats literally how both go down- for once someone decides to let the cat out of the bag and oppose the yevon religion. and it works.even then though the yevonites are not reliant on sin and sin never relies on yevon- as yevon is in total dissarray and sin woulda still be unkillable had it not been for jecht imposing his will so strongly. literally the only reason both went down was the happy circumstance nature of Two summoner parties. braska jecht and auron and yuna and her band of misfit toys. How does the cycle prolong their power? what does sin or yunaleska or yu yevon give to them that they must have? if anything the cycle exposed them- proof is in the pudding- thats literally how theyre defeated cant argue apoint from one the game proves true itself. the game tells us theyre nihilists- they believe oblivion is salvation. If thats what theyre after- then why not lead the crusaders into a suicide mission where literally they convince everyone that one prayer will finish it if they bring ALL of yevon out to do it. and then boom- oblvion. Seamore and mika get their way, and sin most likely vanishes out after using up all the magical resources on earth. they dont interconnect well at all and thats the problem- theyre both corrupt but for alternate reasons that dont connect yevons goal and the Measters.

. The Maesters didn't know there was a way to defeat Sin for good. They only knew of the Final Summoning.  
Never said they did and that really doesnt matter anway.

You wanna take out a sword and fight Sin head-on like the Crusaders did? Good luck, Rosy. Try not to end up like Chappu. 
Chappu fought with machina.

The Bahamut Aeon does blow Yevon's cover, but by then, the Summoner is likely brainwashed to the point of "Well, I made it this far.
Hundreds of years have passed and every summoner who passed these halls happened to be ok with nihilistic conclusions? think about how stupid that is; all this time you were raised to think you could make a difference- and that optimism just is gone with one swoop? bullshit- people dont flip on a dime like that, they have a confused moment and many will try to make sense of it- the type of people Summoners tend to be are much more emotional secure than just any old person. Theyre going to have more resolve than that they dedicated years of their life to saving spira. What ussually crushes them is the grind up, but Bahamut is the light to the end- only Zanarkand and the final summon lay there- and once they met yunaleska they all had to agree that the cycle was the only path to peace. I just dont buy that 1000 years of summoners all felt this way- that math is off and is far too cynical to be realistic.

Wakka was sure this machina was BANNED by Yevon. A change is comin' for ol' Wakka! 
If you don't accept people who have changed, Rosy, then I can't do anything for you. That's a horrible way to act towards people who have a total 180 mindset change to think how you think. 

This is ab honimim. and also irrelevant cause I already provided objective reasons.

And what's wrong with anyone using magic? In Final Fantasy Tactics, anyone could use magic, and you could even switch classes or put it as a secondary. 
I don't want the IZJS. End of freaking story. It sucks. I have played it. 
No thank you to that.

Its called game balance. in tactics you could use black magic but you were not able to have the same range or dmg cause it was reduced to a secondary role. It was always better to have dedicated classes, because they often improved the utility they offered.
Its hard to use tactics as an example of Zodiac being bad- CAUSE TACTICS IS THE ZODIAC JOB SYSTEM! the only difference is you cant switch around. which considering the 6 party members and action being played in live time makes alot of sense. like I said properly made rules to a game are preferable to breaking the purpose of your own items cause anyone can do anything. because they offer more powerful choices that have bigger impacts- instead of you know- just going for the most optimal load out available. you can play the game the way you want despite its flaw- but the IZJS was introduced to balance the game from a common problem. It wasnt made to spite you and I assure you the game is better for it- its way better as a design and of course you wont convince me otherwise. it offers no substance, and I dont value freedom if the choices have no impact. like I said- you could use the bombs- or you could use the axes and swords cause they hit harder and youll finish off that boss alot quicker that way, and bombs while neat offer 0% advantage over axes.IZJS fixed that. I mean Its objectively better- you just dont like it cause taste. but the design fixed alot about the games license mechanics. and made more skills and weapons USABLE and encourages more diversity in the cast and gambits.

^This is the kind of ignorance that made me say I'm leaving it at that.
I give straight facts, and you cross out my facts and call them irrelevant or you make up silly stuff to avoid the point I made. 
I didn't even bother reading most of what you said, because you're so closed-minded that you refuse to forgive someone who has changed, and you refuse to accept answers you are given.

You're the bigot, Rosy. You hate people because of who they are or used to be. You're the inexcusable one. 

Judge a video game character for their past all you want, and ignore all of the facts you want, but at the end of the day, I'm surprised you sleep at night with how much hatred you have for people who don't agree with you-- even video game characters. But I suppose that's to be expected of you. I'm pretty sure we all know why you REALLY hated Wakka. 

To answer the original post once again, Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy XII are both seen as great games in many peoples' eyes. Of course, you may not see that, but everyone else can. The premise of the original post is based on your ignorance, and this whole conversation itself is based on that same premise. 

I am 100% done with this conversation, I'm not even going to read the ignorant responses. Have fun arguing with yourself, hateful Rosy. 

Can we agree to disagree and not make it personal again please?

Up until the post before mine it was a legitimate discussion and argument wherein both sides submitted ideas and counter-arguments including evidence, with no personal attacks, so I thought it was a good exercise for you guys. Now I'm not so sure.